WTF are all of you North American roasters doing?

elusive espresso... theorize, philosophize!

WTF are all of you North American roasters doing?

Postby luca on Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:54 am

Hehehe ... thought that title might get your attention.

I went to coffeereview.com and was confronted with an article comparing some US espresso blends to imported Italian blends. According to Davids, Intelligentsia and Peets below Segafredo and a few other italian espresso blends. Seriously, check it out.

Now, over here most of these imported coffees taste so damned stale to me that on the few occasions where a gun is put to my head and some actually touches my tastebuds I want to lick the remains out of any nearby ashtrays to lessen the offensive ashy tastes in my mouth. OK, perhaps italian coffee gets shipped to north america faster than it gets shipped to australia, but I struggle to believe that it would be fresh enough to impress anyone with a decent palate.

So what's the deal? Do we think that I'm loopy and should sign up for an illy subscription? Has Davids been expedited coffee samples from Italy? Does he just have NFI when it comes to espresso as opposed to other brewing methods?

Cheers,

Luca
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Postby onocoffee on Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:24 am

While I didn't read the review word-for-word, I don't think Davids noted his sourcing process. Further, it's disappointing to see that he only reviewed Starbucks, Peet's and Intelligentsia as non-Italian representatives of espresso - especially considering the breadth of espresso blends available on the open-market not only in the United States but from excellent coffee companies in Canada, Europa and Austral-Asia.

In the end, should we really be that surprised about the rankings? Or have we become our own "Third Wave Love Fest" that we can't accept it when one of the "in" kids didn't make it to the top of the list - regardless of merit?
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Postby nick on Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:18 am

As many of us learned on Portafilter Podcast #32, the CR.com espresso extraction methodology is... crap.

There... I said it.

If he had employed any new sort of evaluation methodology, he would surely have mentioned it in the "article" accompanying the reviews.
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Postby James Hoffmann on Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:40 am

By whatever methodology I am very surprised to see a Segafreddo coffee top the list. Whilst I haven't tried that one, every other offering I've tried has been "not to my taste." Granted I've usually been subjected to the fighting coffees, and all Italian roasters do seem to carry one or two top end coffees. I might contact the UK supplier out of sheer curiousity and get a bag....
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Postby malachi on Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:10 am

Nick is correct.

I would tend to say that Davids' espresso results and opinions are, in essence, valueless.

In fact, this raises the question... in today's world, is Coffee Review relevant anymore?
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Postby Marshall on Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:35 am

malachi wrote:In fact, this raises the question... in today's world, is Coffee Review relevant anymore?
Yes, if for no other reason than it introduces consumers to a much wider world of coffee roasters than they ever knew existed.

You see this a lot on alt.coffee and CoffeeGeek. "There aren't any good roasters in my neighborhood. I don't like Starbucks. So, my only option is to home roast."
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Postby Mark Prince on Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:05 pm

Already all over this.

Image

Writing about it in an article spaced called State of Coffee - first part is the premise, second part is the payoff (testing the coffees with some of Vancouver's top baristas). An excerpt:



Before I say anything else, I have to say this (and it's so important, you're going to see this mirrored in the actual article testing the coffees):

I admire, nay, revere Ken Davids and his books.

... snipped a bunch of platitudes for Ken ...

I mention this as a preface because I want you to know where I'm coming from for the rest of my commentary here. I respect Ken and what he's done for the industry and especially for consumers - arguably more than any other source, including this website, to advance the appreciation of quality coffee.

With that out of the way... after reading Ken's head to head testing of the Italian Blends vs the US blends, an opinion I've had about Ken for a few years now is even more strengthened: Ken may have forgotten more about coffee, origins, roasting, and cupping than I've ever learned in my nearly 10 years in the specialty coffee arena, but I think Ken should stay away from any critical discussion about espresso and the evaluation of the beverage.

One key indicator of this was some verbage attributed to Ken Davids on the Aeropress packaging:

"When used properly, AeroPress produces a remarkably good straight espresso and an excellent Americano-styled taller cup. In fact, it produces a better espresso shot than many home machines that cost twenty or thirty times as much."
- Ken Davids

Another is that Ken himself admitted to me that he doesn't consider himself a skilled barista, and tends to utilise the services of others for pulling evaluative shots. And there's been other indications over the years that perhaps Ken.... well, perhaps he just needs to stay away from any critical or evaluative discussion about espresso, at least where espresso is today, worldwide (not just Italy or the US).

When reading the introduction on Coffee Review, I noticed there was no discussion (or to put it more bluntly, "transparency") about how the shots were pulled, dosed, ground, what machine, what grinder, what environment, nothing. Given that there was a wide range of roast styles on the table, from the uber dark (I didn't say charred, did I?) Peets and Starbucks, to the extra medium-light Illy and Segafredos, a skilled barista would know that, at the very least, each of these roast levels would need different brewing temperatures. Dark roasts like cooler brewing temperatures. It's one of the reasons why many drip machines can do okay with a Starbucks roast, because their super-dark levels like brewing life in the low 190s and even the 180s. On the other side of the spectrum, lighter roasts typically like higher brewing temperatures - an Illy level roast (or for instance, Epic from 49th Parallel) likes life in the 198-202F range on an espresso machine.

Add another variable a truly skilled barista or espresso expert would know: different bean types and different roast levels require different grinds and different doses to get the most out of those blends. And even other variables come into play. If you're an "any coffee, any machine, any grinder" kinda barista, part of your skill set would be to identify what the bean or blend wants most, then adjust your variables to match. No PID controlled machine? Fine - surf the pressurestat or thermometer when pulling the shot. Can't get cool enough for that extra char... er dark roast? Cool the portafilter down first by leaving it out of the machine, and let it become a bit of a heat sink for the grouphead. Etc etc.

Back to Ken and his reviews. If all the coffees were brewed on the same machine, with the same doses, with the same temperatures, and the machine was skewed towards favouring a lighter roast, of course Black Cat (which is roasted darker and darker these days, it seems) is going to fare badly. So is Peets (though it scored higher than BC!!), and for that matter, Starbucks. Any S. Italian style roast will die in conditions that show off a N. Italian blend well.

So basically, knowing what I know about most of the coffees Ken rated (I've tasted and pulled shots with seven of the blends he rates), something seems to be pretty screwed up with his method of pulling shots and tasting.

Rumour has it (totally uncomfirmed): all shots were pulled on a super auto. Meh.

Hey - rumours like this are gonna fly around, unless you're completely transparent with your testing methodology and practices! With the article I have planned out, I'll fully detail exactly how we pulled each test shot (with lots of dial in shots to get there, no doubt). I've already bought $90 worth of coffee for the Italian side of the big battle, from Bosa foods, and via mail order. It should happen in the next week, and hopefully, the article will be up a week or two after....

More soon.

Mark
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Re: WTF are all of you North American roasters doing?

Postby Mark Prince on Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:11 pm

luca wrote:So what's the deal? Do we think that I'm loopy and should sign up for an illy subscription? Has Davids been expedited coffee samples from Italy? Does he just have NFI when it comes to espresso as opposed to other brewing methods?


Most of Ken's Italian blends were sourced from 1st Line. At best, probably the ones with the latest "best before date" were sent to him. (Most Italian whole bean bags have it stamped on the foil on their bottom seam).

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Postby Matt Milletto on Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:29 pm

Not agreeing or disagreeing with the points made ... but f.y.i. I sampled and evaluated these espresso with Ken last month when he was in Portland teaching a class. It was very interesting, and having lived in Italy for 14 months, I had forgotten a lot about my espresso experiences there. I pulled all of the shots that we (a group of 5 or 6) tasted and evaluated, aroma, body, with milk, etc. I extracted each espresso, each in a different mazzer and all on the same machine (GB5). (This is assuming this was the same evaluation he based his article on). I do not know Ken's methods on other evaluations, but on this one I do.

- Matt
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Postby Mark Prince on Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:39 pm

Matt Milletto wrote:Not agreeing or disagreeing with the points made ... but f.y.i. I sampled and evaluated these espresso with Ken last month when he was in Portland teaching a class. It was very interesting, and having lived in Italy for 14 months, I had forgotten a lot about my espresso experiences there. I pulled all of the shots that we (a group of 5 or 6) tasted and evaluated, aroma, body, with milk, etc. I extracted each espresso, each in a different mazzer and all on the same machine (GB5). (This is assuming this was the same evaluation he based his article on). I do not know Ken's methods on other evaluations, but on this one I do.


Matt, will you be able to confirm that the shots you pulled ended up being the evaluated in Ken's article?

If so, that makes a big difference. The real rumour going around was it was all super auto produced.

With that said, did each blend gets its chance at optimum temperatures for that particular blend?

What we plan to do is have one very skilled barista "have go" isolated, and not in contact with the other three tasters, at each blend. It's up to this barista to change the machine temp, adjust dose, grind, hell, go through the entire 1kilo if they have to, to get what they consider that coffee's best offering. Then serve it up to the taste judges. I'm not sure if I'm going to do the test truly blind or not yet.


Mark
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Postby Jim Schulman on Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:44 pm

This year's version of Black Cat doesn't strike me as it's usual cheerful, pulls well on just about anything self; instead I found it to have a narrow sweet spot and it's quite tough to get just right. Davids' "Richly pungent and cedery" description sounds like what I might have used to politely describe some of the more jarringly bitter shots I got.

Assuming he blew the pulls of the Black Cat, why on earth would anyone expect Peets or Starbucks to do better than Italian blends?
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Postby Mark Prince on Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:56 pm

I think the scariest thing for me is that Peets' beat the BC in that test.

And Segefredo getting a 93? Aren't the nineties usually reserved for the upper stratosphere coffees? Ken seems to be doling them out more and more these days. George Howell's Kenya just got a 97 - and that coffee is spectacular - but the 90s have been rolling a lot as of late on CR.

BTW, I do agree that Black Cat has seen much better days.

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Postby Brent on Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:08 pm

Mark Prince wrote:I think the scariest thing for me is that Peets' beat the BC in that test.


why?

that in the test the peets delivered a better shot once than the BC... it may not be representative overall, but entirely possible in a one off.

of course I could be wrong, and am sure Inny will correct me... :)
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Postby Ric Rhinehart on Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:47 pm

Two Buck Chuck Wins Double Gold

This raises all kinds of interesting questions about taste and tasting. The judges involved here are wine professionals, and are screened as tasters by a wine version of the SCAA sensory skills test.

What does it all mean? Amongst other things, it may mean that the ability to discern taste does not necessarily guarantee one is a discerning taster. There are issues surrounding the degree of exposure that qualified tasters have with a broad range of samples.

For example, I had the luxury of working with a group of very dedicated young coffee cuppers who had a fair amount of experience cupping world class coffees. They were (and are) excellent cuppers in terms of their collective and individual abilities to taste coffee and identify attributes. Almost all of the coffees that they had been exposed to were of exceptional quality - COE auctions from Brazil to El Salvador, Best of Panama, ECAFE, and samples representing the best of coffee producers from around the world. What they didn't know was the rest of the coffee spectrum - mediocrity and outright defects that occur in most of the worlds coffee supply.

I feel strongly that this gap in their collective knowledge made them less adept at picking out the truly exceptional as opposed to the merely wonderful. Anyway, not sure what it all means in the context of this conversation, but I am most interested in seeing the results of other comparative tastings.
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Postby Ryan Willbur on Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:37 pm

I really have felt for a very long time that someone needs to step up... and not just anyone... And start an alternate to coffee review. I have to whole-heartedly agree with Tacy that Ken's reviews may be irrelevant...

What's he's done for our industry has been great and he has published some awesome books that have spread coffee knowledge a long way...

However... We have given one man the power to tell the general public what is good coffee and what is bad. He doesn't need to go away, but someone else needs to have the power too...

I have two ideas for who should do this. Either K.C. O'Keefe or Anette Moldvaer... the world tasting champion. At least with Anette, there's some sort of credential to set her above the rest...
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Postby Keith on Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:02 pm

I can give a second nomination for KC...as a matter of fact there is no one I would trust more to do many things...from raising my kids to running the country. But Im sure he has his hands full at the moment.

This is a great thread and its interesting to hear everyones comments. When I read Kens review, I was shocked and felt that I needed to go back and review Italian Espressos which are generally "not to my taste". Maybe I should though in a blind evaluation.

Is it possible that the Italian Espressos are more forgiving and have brewing parameters that are not as narrow? If that is true, is there anything wrong with espresso that performs well pulled by anyone, on any machine?
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Postby malachi on Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:17 pm

Marshall wrote:
malachi wrote:In fact, this raises the question... in today's world, is Coffee Review relevant anymore?
Yes, if for no other reason than it introduces consumers to a much wider world of coffee roasters than they ever knew existed.

You see this a lot on alt.coffee and CoffeeGeek. "There aren't any good roasters in my neighborhood. I don't like Starbucks. So, my only option is to home roast."


So Coffee Review is valuable to the ignorant only?
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Postby onocoffee on Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:19 pm

Dear Lord God -

Please give me a break!!!!

No one has "given" Davids "powers." He's gone out and created a site on his own and took the time (and cajones) to do it.

I am not a CR.com reader, therefore, it matters little to me what Davids has to say about any coffee. High ratings are nice - but they're certainly not the be-all, end-all of the industry.

Ryan- my only question is: if Intelligentsia's Black Cat had been the highest rated coffee in the CR.com review, would you still bemoan his preponderance of "power" over "our" industry?

Somehow, I doubt it.

As much as many here HATE to hear it, Kenneth Davids is the closest thing coffee has to a Robert Parker. While Davids methodologies are certainly different than Parker's, his impact and reach within the coffee world is similar.

Those of you who bemoan his "power" ought to put your resources behind alternative coffee review sites/publications - just as there is the Wine Spectator and International Wine Review as a counterpoint to Parker.
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Postby malachi on Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:20 pm

If Parker were tasting his wine from heated ceramic coffee mugs, then the analogy would be more accurate.
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Postby Matt Milletto on Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:25 pm

I am training thru sunday. 14 hr days. not a lot of coffeed time. I am looking forward to jumping back in to this thread on Monday. I will then be able to confirm with Ken that the shots we evaluated were actually the ones mentioned in his article.

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Postby Marshall on Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:35 pm

malachi wrote:So Coffee Review is valuable to the ignorant only?
Please don't put words in my mouth, Chris. I was only pointing out one service that Ken provides that is indisputable.
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Postby luca on Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:46 pm

Hi guys,

I'm glad that my initial post provoked some discussion.

I have had Black Cat a few times in Australia and, I'm sorry to say this to anyone who might be reading from intelligentsia, but I wouldn't rate it massively highly. Decent, but not great. That said, a lot of the problems might have been to do with postage. It has always seemed very dark and very oily. (Intelly readers might like to know that the people who have ordered it have always been overwhelmed by the customer service, though, which once included throwing in some more coffee.) My questions weren't so much expressing shock at Intelly getting a lower rating than a 90 and I really don't have a clue who Peets are, but it was more that I struggle to comprehend how anyone could get a drinkable shot out of segafredo, et al, over here. By the time that it reaches us it is ... well ... one description that made me laugh was "fossil coffee." Is this not the case in the USA? Mark's response seems to point to the imports being stale.

Matt, could you describe what the pours of the import coffee looked like? Did you taste any yourself?

Cheers,

Luca
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Postby Jeff Jassmond on Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:47 pm

Please don't let this go too far, mostly for the sake of saving everyone's time so they can focus on coffee. The reviewer as devil thing has been hashed out so often in the wine world that it makes no sense to do it here with coffee.

I respect Mr. Davids' as an industry pioneer, but I tend to disagree by a very predictable point-spread on his reviews. That's just me, and that's the problem with being involved in an industry that relies on the ability to communicate subjective experience.

When Matt gets some time off I am very interested to know what the methodology was.

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Re: WTF are all of you North American roasters doing?

Postby Jaime van Schyndel on Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:49 pm

luca wrote:I went to coffeereview.com and was confronted with an article comparing some US espresso blends to imported Italian blends.

...Cheers,

Luca


Luca,
I like the original question.

Simon H. paid a lot of cash to send Mr. Davids espresso only to get a strange review. It wasn't pulled or brewed at suggested temp/dose/volume and we warned him bout that beforehand but he felt pressure to submit the coffee for legitimacy with peers/consumers. Everyone knows Ken and he's an expert, right? Conclusion: The espresso reviews on that site are not scientific nor of any use whatsoever.

Ken is no robert parker and it's foolish to begin to draw that parallel. Coffee is not where wine is at by any stretch of the imagination. before everyone starts blustering about more review sites, consider that the indsutry is young and may not really be ready for a slew of coffee critics. Many roasters simply have enough trouble with consistency and keeping the coffee up to a certain standard as roasted/served... for us to be talking about a need for more reviewers. When I can spend big money on a 95-97pt coffee and not worry that it will be scorched, tipped, dulled, or baked, I will defer to the emergence of more coffee critics.

The real debate I find more scintillating is does BC deserve to be in the top tier?
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Postby luca on Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:59 pm

(NB: I was editing my post above whilst the two posts above this one were posted)

Jamie, here is Kenneth Davids' review of Simon's coffee:

Superb aroma: Richly and deeply fruity with floral top notes. In the small cup leanish but smooth mouthfeel, salty sweet, crisp, deeply cedary, with an apricot-toned semi-sweet chocolate. Rich but slightly astringent finish. Masters milk with dry power but without opulence.


His assertion that it tasted "salty" and "deeply cedary" makes me kind of question what the hell he is doing. I would have thought that either the extraction was off and should have been corrected before reviewing, or if the blend were inherently "salty" it should have been given much less than 89.

I find it quite irritating that his reviews don't actually mention the brewing method.

Cheers,

Luca
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