three phase robur

grinders for home and commercial

three phase robur

Postby xristrettox on Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:58 pm

I've heard about them, but have no experience with them.

Anybody out there have experience? What's the deal with three phase anyway? Is this covered in another thread (quick search couldn't find it).

We are considering upgrading, and as rumor has it, it will grind your dose in two-ish seconds. Anybody confirm this?

thanks,
billy
Billy Wilson
Portland, Oregon
xristrettox
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:21 pm
Location: Portland, OR
full name: Billy Wilson
company: BARISTA

Postby terry on Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:20 pm

Billy,

come on up to Oly next week, and you can try one of our out.


Terry Z
Terry Z
Espressoparts.com
Olympiacoffee.com
terry
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:35 pm
Location: olympia, wa

Postby Kyle Glanville on Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:10 pm

Billy -

I used them a bunch in Greece. They may be the best espresso grinders manufactured today. That doesn't mean they're good (cuz no espresso grinder is) but I think they are the best we can get our paws on in the states.

And yes, they are really effing fast. I'd say roughly 10g/sec. But the burrs are only spinning at around 450rpm. Very cool....
Kyle Glanville
Intelligentsia Coffee
http://kyleglanville.wordpress.com
Kyle Glanville
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:44 pm
Location: los angeles
full name: kyle glanville
company: intelligentsia coffee
: http://blackcatcoffee.com

Postby nick on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:35 pm

Kyle Glanville wrote:And yes, they are really effing fast. I'd say roughly 10g/sec. But the burrs are only spinning at around 450rpm. Very cool....

Then why the hell isn't there a 110V version with the big burr set? I don't understand why they couldn't have just built a Robur with the big 83-or-whatever-millimeter burrs, at a SLOWER than 450rpm rotational speed (speed vs. control and quality), on a 110V voltage.

There's the LM prototype grinder with the same sort of big burrs... I dunno. So far, it seems that nobody (grinder manufacturers) seem to "get it." I hope La Marzocco can.
Nick Cho
nick
 
Posts: 1334
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:15 pm
Location: San Francisco, Coffeefornia
full name: Nicholas Cho
company: Wrecking Ball Coffee Roasters
: http://nickcho.com
: http://wreckingballcoffee.com/

Postby Jimmy Oneschuk on Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:25 pm

supposedly, 3-phase motors run cooler than single phase...

Although I have heard elsewhere getting the burrs in motion is where your heat will be created. Andy S will know!
Jimmy Oneschuk
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:34 pm
Location: Saskatoon
full name: Jimmy Oneschuk
company: Museo
: espressolab.ca

Postby tim on Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:13 am

Bigger burrs and much faster grind than the single phase, but I don't know if the RPM is slower. The burrs are huge and the grinder doesn't heat up as fast as its little brother. But it will heat up eventually.
All in all a good alternative to the Compak K10
Tim Wendelboe
tim
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:59 am
Location: Norway

Postby Andy Schecter on Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:54 pm

nick wrote:Then why the hell isn't there a 110V version with the big burr set? I don't understand why they couldn't have just built a Robur with the big 83-or-whatever-millimeter burrs, at a SLOWER than 450rpm rotational speed (speed vs. control and quality), on a 110V voltage.


Because Mazzer thought about how many 83mm/110v Roburs they'd sell in a year, and compared it to how much it would cost to develop the new motor/gearbox mechanicals. Then, like everything else having to do with 3W espresso, they decided to pass on it.

Somehow I convinced myself to order a three phase Robur for home use. :-0 I have no idea where I'm going to put it. But I'll soon be running it on a frequency drive.
-AndyS
Schectermatic(tm), the oldest, most trusted brand of espresso grinder shnozzola
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
Andy Schecter
 
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:59 pm
Location: NY

Postby Andy Schecter on Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:09 pm

jimmyo wrote:supposedly, 3-phase motors run cooler than single phase...

Although I have heard elsewhere getting the burrs in motion is where your heat will be created. Andy S will know!



Three phase motors are a little more efficient at getting the burrs in motion and keeping them in motion. So they run a little cooler.

But the other source of heat in an espresso grinder is friction caused by the grinding itself. Bigger burrs at slower speeds seem to help.

Unfortunately, the classic espresso grinder design keeps heat trapped inside very efficiently, since the beans sitting in the hopper choke off convection, and the burr carriers are mostly buried inside a massive housing.
-AndyS
Schectermatic(tm), the oldest, most trusted brand of espresso grinder shnozzola
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
Andy Schecter
 
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:59 pm
Location: NY

Postby James Hoffmann on Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:23 pm

Unfortunately, the classic espresso grinder design keeps heat trapped inside very efficiently, since the beans sitting in the hopper choke off convection, and the burr carriers are mostly buried inside a massive housing.


Having had a grinder apart and sat in front of me for a while now I have to say this is a very frustrating problem that there is no simple mod/solution for. Installing a fan is easy but I am now more concerned about the heat in the burrs and not the motor itself.
James Hoffmann
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:34 am
Location: London, UK
full name: James Hoffmann
company: Square Mile Coffee Roasters
: http://www.squaremilecoffee.com
: http://www.jimseven.com

Postby Andy Schecter on Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:18 pm

James Hoffmann wrote:Having had a grinder apart and sat in front of me for a while now I have to say this is a very frustrating problem that there is no simple mod/solution for. Installing a fan is easy but I am now more concerned about the heat in the burrs and not the motor itself.


Efficiency in getting the heat out of the burrs is one of the advantages of an open top, hopperless grinder like the Versalab.

If you set up a doser to drop whole beans into an open top grinder, you leave room for the heat to get out. And the beans are not heated by sitting on the hot burrset.
-AndyS
Schectermatic(tm), the oldest, most trusted brand of espresso grinder shnozzola
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
Andy Schecter
 
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:59 pm
Location: NY

Postby Philip Search on Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:18 pm

What Andy and others have said is correct, the heat isn't from the motor... the motor just helps keep everything hot. The grounds in the burrs, the beans above, and the coffee in the chute all insulate the heat to the burr set, heat generated by the way the beans are crushed, then distributed to be cut fine. Most every grinder heats to 100-120 degrees within about 30 minutes of constant use, including a standard robur. The data on the 3phase that I have isn't complete yet. I can say though, I have seen a solution put on a standard espresso grinder that kept the grouds at less than 75 degrees no matter the volume.
Philip Search
Philip Search
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:08 pm
full name: Phillip Search
company: The Devil's Cup

Postby xristrettox on Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:53 pm

... and that solution is...
Billy Wilson
Portland, Oregon
xristrettox
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:21 pm
Location: Portland, OR
full name: Billy Wilson
company: BARISTA

Postby Philip Search on Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:59 pm

I can't say! ;) The person who paid for the research has to finish the report befor I can blab.
Philip Search
Philip Search
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:08 pm
full name: Phillip Search
company: The Devil's Cup

Postby Mike Gregory on Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:03 pm

Those of you using the 220 Robur, how are you supplying the 3 phase power? Variable-frequency drive? What have been your installation costs?
Mike Gregory
 
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: Seattle
full name: Mike Gregory
company: Independent

Postby Brent on Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:39 pm

trabant wrote:Those of you using the 220 Robur, how are you supplying the 3 phase power? Variable-frequency drive? What have been your installation costs?


There is someone here in NZ providing gear to frequency shift single phase to deliver three phase for motors. They have a US agent. Yeah, if you wanted one, and if it's cheaper, you can buy it in NZ and get it shipped through me. They are not necessarily to far from me.

Found it while looking at generators for sale between power cuts last weekend :(
Brent
Brent
 
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:23 pm
Location: New Zealand
full name: Brent
company: .

Postby Mike Gregory on Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:22 pm

This leads to another question: will the 3 phase be allowed in competition, ie, will the necessary power outlets and/or any converters be provided? After all, the USBC is just around the corner...
Mike Gregory
 
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: Seattle
full name: Mike Gregory
company: Independent

Postby Brent on Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:24 pm

trabant wrote:This leads to another question: will the 3 phase be allowed in competition, ie, will the necessary power outlets and/or any converters be provided? After all, the USBC is just around the corner...


The key there is that the power outlets have the current capacity to deliver...

I have worked a number of venues where we had to put high current slow blow fuses (see example pic) into power boards because they couldn't handle much more than a low watt reading lamp :D
Image

Generally with a venue they should be able to provide x power. From there you normally have your own distribution system, or the venue arranges it.

Depending on the venue this can be anything from part of the service to hellishly expensive. Specific requirements past the outlet are normally resolved by the person requiring the power. So I would expect if I required 3 phase / 220v / 50 hz that if it wasn't stated as available I would need to work it out myself. I would also not expect to be able to fit a slow blow fuse to accomodate the current...

In the music world most musos who had special requirement gear had the power units to deliver what they wanted to the unit from whatever power was available.
Brent
Brent
 
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:23 pm
Location: New Zealand
full name: Brent
company: .

Postby Ryan Willbur on Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:36 pm

I don't see anyone (without some sort of timing device) benefiting from a 3 phase Robur in competition. I mean, really, when you're shooting for as little grind as possible, do you really want coffee flying at you at 10g a second...

Oh, and as I was so awakenly reminded just a bit ago... Billy did take 2nd in the USBC with a super jolly... so why waste time and energy?
Ryan Willbur
http://www.rwillbur.com
@RWillbur
Ryan Willbur
 
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:05 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
full name: Ryan Willbur
company: La Marzocco USA

Postby Brent on Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:37 pm

Ryan Willbur wrote:Oh, and as I was so awakenly reminded just a bit ago... Billy did take 2nd in the USBC with a super jolly... so why waste time and energy?


what if he had a robur???

:)
Brent
Brent
 
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:23 pm
Location: New Zealand
full name: Brent
company: .

Postby nick on Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:22 am

trabant wrote:This leads to another question: will the 3 phase be allowed in competition, ie, will the necessary power outlets and/or any converters be provided? After all, the USBC is just around the corner...

The answer is NO.

Only 110V 15A is provided. If you blow a circuit because you have too much shit on the circuit, it's not the responsibility of the USBC committee to accomodate your requirements.
Nick Cho
nick
 
Posts: 1334
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:15 pm
Location: San Francisco, Coffeefornia
full name: Nicholas Cho
company: Wrecking Ball Coffee Roasters
: http://nickcho.com
: http://wreckingballcoffee.com/

Postby Andy Schecter on Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:57 pm

nick wrote:
trabant wrote:This leads to another question: will the 3 phase be allowed in competition, ie, will the necessary power outlets and/or any converters be provided? After all, the USBC is just around the corner...

The answer is NO.

Only 110V 15A is provided. If you blow a circuit because you have too much shit on the circuit, it's not the responsibility of the USBC committee to accomodate your requirements.


I've been running my brand spankin' new 3 phase Robur on a frequency drive. It plugs into a standard 115v circuit and draws about 9 amps. So you'd have to have a lot of other "shit" on the circuit in order to blow it.

I have the drive set to deliver 230v 3 phase at 50 hz (rather than the N. American standard of 60 Hz). This supposedly drives the burrs at 420 rpm (haven't measured the rpm yet). 420 rpm is the speed at which it runs in Europe, and I presume the engineers knew what they were doing when they designed it that way. It's possible that the burrs may run a little cooler running at this lower speed rather than the 500 rpm they'd do on 60 hz.

With this setup the Robur is delivering a little over 4 grams of coffee per second, which means a shot is ground in about 4 secs. If that's not fast enough for your baristas, perhaps they should switch to decaf.

I also have it on a timer, so that one push of a button runs it for 4.2 seconds, 4.5 seconds or whatever. Nice.

This is still in the experimental stage, but so far results are completely trouble-free. Of course, I'm a little concerned about this placard that came packed in the Mazzer box:
;-)

Image
Last edited by Andy Schecter on Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-AndyS
Schectermatic(tm), the oldest, most trusted brand of espresso grinder shnozzola
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
Andy Schecter
 
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:59 pm
Location: NY

Postby Andy Schecter on Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:18 pm

AndyS wrote:I've been running my brand spankin' new 3 phase Robur on a frequency drive.


Oh yeah, how does it taste?

Still to early to be sure, I've only pulled a dozen shots so far. And I'm comparing it so far to a humble Mazzer Mini that's seen about 75 lbs of coffee through its burrs.

But Schomer's statement that espresso made with conical burrs is heavier and thicker seems right on. He says it delivers more flavor into the cup. I'm not sure about that yet, but I've got a lot of playing to do.
-AndyS
Schectermatic(tm), the oldest, most trusted brand of espresso grinder shnozzola
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
Andy Schecter
 
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:59 pm
Location: NY

Postby James Hoffmann on Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:18 pm

It won't let me see the picture :( (Permissions apparently)

What timer are you using?
James Hoffmann
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:34 am
Location: London, UK
full name: James Hoffmann
company: Square Mile Coffee Roasters
: http://www.squaremilecoffee.com
: http://www.jimseven.com

Re: three phase robur

Postby Andy Schecter on Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:04 pm

xristrettox wrote:We are considering upgrading, and as rumor has it, it will grind your dose in two-ish seconds. Anybody confirm this?



Hi Billy:

I realize you're probably not going to upgrade until you get back from Guatemala, but...you asked the question.

Running at 60 hz (500 rpm burr speed), my 3 phase robur is grinding 5-6 grams per second, depending on fineness. It might be even a little faster for a very coarse grind in a triple basket.

Running at 50 hz (420 rpm burr speed), it grinds 4-5 grams per second.


Image
-AndyS
Schectermatic(tm), the oldest, most trusted brand of espresso grinder shnozzola
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
Andy Schecter
 
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:59 pm
Location: NY

Postby phaelon56 on Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:18 am

AndyS wrote:I've been running my brand spankin' new 3 phase Robur on a frequency drive. It plugs into a standard 115v circuit and draws about 9 amps. So you'd have to have a lot of other "shit" on the circuit in order to blow it.


The frequency drive looks like just what I need for my three phase Mahlkoenigs. Does the drive do what a phase converter does but just for less money? I was looking at close to $500 for a phase converter in order to get one that would hanbdle the extra draw at startup.

Is there a "gotcha" on the frequency drives?
Owen O'Neill
Syracuse NY

Phaelon Coffee
and
New York Central Coffee Roasters
phaelon56
 
Posts: 736
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:58 am
Location: Syracuse, NY
full name: Owen O'Neill
company: Phaelon Coffee / New York Central Coffee

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest